Sunday, March 02, 2014Ken Boa on Two Kinds of People“There are two kinds of people in the world: those who seek God and those who seek to avoid him… and both will be successful.” – Ken Boa Apologetics315 is a non-profit ministry. You can support this work here. Do you do your shopping at Amazon? If so, using this Amazon link supports Apologetics315. In the UK? Use this UK Amazon link. By Brian Auten on March 2, 2014 at 7:30 am Topics: apologetics, Ken Boa, Quotes 17 comments 0 Related Terminology Tuesday: Verification Theory of Meaning Review: Reading Genesis 1-2: An Evangelical Conversation 17 Comments Aaron October 11, 2009 I'm stealing this quote : ) Brian October 11, 2009 It is something he said on one of his recent podcasts. I thought it was quite Pascalian. Aaron October 11, 2009 I suppose Calvin would say: "There are two kinds of people in this world: those whom God draws to Himself and those whom He does not…and He will always be successful." Brian October 11, 2009 I suppose from Calvin's perspective the quote is not incompatible, just incomplete. Lee October 12, 2009 Is this a false dichotomy I see before me? It's nonsense whatever it is… if this is the kind of quotes Christians need to 'keep the faith' then so be it. I'm looking for God, been challenging all the arguments. Not found any good arguments, not found God (and more importantly God has not found me) Am I a seeking or an avoider? SteveC October 12, 2009 Hi Lee, Wow,this quote really got under your skin.Not sure why. Only you can answer your question 'Am I a seeking or an avoider'. I will just offer this. I believe Boa means by "seek" to seek with an open heart and mind. I think we both know people who DONT want there to be a God. They DONT want reality to be like that. Such a person might claim to be "looking" for God by challenging all the arguments, but this wouldn't seem to qualify as "seeking" the way I think Boa means. Again Lee, only you know the answer to your own question. I hope you figure that one out. Take care. bossmanham October 13, 2009 Lee, You sure you're seeking? If you keep your heart hard and your mind closed, all the new info in the world isn't going to help. Joshua Jung October 13, 2009 If you keep your heart hard and your mind closed, all the new info in the world isn't going to help. What does this mean? I honestly don't get it. If the Holy Spirit is indeed powerful and the Word of God cuts like a two-edged sword, I cannot comprehend how a person could have the power to keep themselves from this effect. bossmanham October 13, 2009 If the Holy Spirit is indeed powerful and the Word of God cuts like a two-edged sword, I cannot comprehend how a person could have the power to keep themselves from this effect. Some theologians say they can't (Calvinists). Arminians such as myself say men can harden their hearts and resist the enabling power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does convict them and enable them and this is through the hearing of the word, but if you close your mind to this you can resist and are culpable for it. It's part of the gift of volition given by the Creator. Joshua Jung October 15, 2009 Some theologians say they can't (Calvinists). Arminians such as myself say men can harden their hearts and resist the enabling power of the Holy Spirit. = Christian theologians really don't know. The Holy Spirit does convict them and enable them and this is through the hearing of the word, but if you close your mind to this you can resist and are culpable for it. It's part of the gift of volition given by the Creator. = But I do know and can assert it with authority without explaining how I reached the power and conviction of making such an assertion immediately after admitting none of us know! No wonder Christian youth get so confused. First you start off by explaining that different theologians have different opinions, thus undermining any authoritative assertion by any of them before your audience. Then you take a theological stance and assert. Goodness. I'm pretty sure this comment will be blocked, but I find it amusing seeing these contradictions and having what I say censored when I know I am asking some, what I consider, very "childlike" questions. Ironically, Jesus said we were supposed to be like little children to enter the kingdom, so can you fault me? Yours thoroughly confused by the simplicity of this contradiction (as I have been time and time again in every church or Bible school attended), Josh bossmanham October 16, 2009 = Christian theologians really don't know. no, it = there is disagreement among some Christians. Just like there is among non-theists about evolution. = But I do know and can assert it with authority without explaining how I reached the power and conviction of making such an assertion immediately after admitting none of us know! I was giving you the views, since you obviously didn't know. Why are you being a jerk about it? No wonder Christian youth get so confused. I wonder why atheist youth commit murder/suicides in Colorado? Maybe we could dispense with the silly genetic fallacy? First you start off by explaining that different theologians have different opinions, thus undermining any authoritative assertion by any of them before your audience. Then you take a theological stance and assert. So acknowledging a difference of opinion precludes me from forming my own? How does that work? Joshua Jung October 17, 2009 since you obviously didn't know. What? Why are you being a jerk about it? Why are you being condescending? 🙂 I'm going home next week to the most hypocritical group of Christians on the planet, who recently kicked out a lifetime family friend from the church and won't even invite him to my brothers wedding because he slightly disagrees on one theological viewpoint. Namely, guess what? That our church is too focused on doctrine and details to love people properly. He feels like Lordship salvation and a strong Calvinistic stance is being used by the pastor to manipulate people in the church. So the church skipped the Biblical technique of a three-part process to disciplining this elder and basically told him he should resign or they would kick him out the next Sunday. bossmanham, don't take this personally. I just feel like all the theology in the world doesn't have any practical basis because it ends up just being used as a weapon to cause divisions. And goodness, if you have doubts about my understanding of Calvinism, for example, you want me to write out the definition of each leaf of T.U.L.I.P, in my own words with references? You want me to explain double pre-destination in detail with Biblical references? Want me to espouse Romans 10-11 and Paul's ending doxology and how the reinstatement of Israel plays into one's understanding of eschatology? Should I explain my understanding of soteriology and once-saved-always-saved and use big theological words when I do it? How about a quick ho-down on Open Theism and how it undermines Biblical support for God's complete sovereignty? Should I carefully and lucidly explain the potential interpretations of Ezekiel's temple? Do you want me to demonstrate a healthy knowledge of the three-part structure of the garden of Eden and how that mirrors the three-part structure of the tabernacle? What about a deep explanation as to how Jude quoting from the Book of Enoch does not undermine the canon? How about an explanation of Hymenaeous and Alexander and how casting a person over to Satan so their body can be destroyed but their soul saved on the day of judgment is a good thing? Should I explain the ransom theory of the atonement and why it is wrong? Should I write a paper on Calvin's view of Hebrews 6? Or perhaps I should explain what Jesus means when He says "if you do not believe, you are condemned already"? How about a detailed explanation of every classic proof of God's existence from Cosmological and Kalam to Ontological? What would it take to prove to you I do know this stuff? Those questions are easy to answer. My little sister is terrified I am going to hell and I don't know how to keep her from being scared. That's a hard question. So forgive me for being a jerk. I don't know who to talk to. Goodness, and all I want is one Christian… ONE CHRISTIAN… to understand. And if they cannot, I want them to admit I might be right. Goodness, what is so hard about that? Brian, you don't have to post this. I don't expect you to. I just have to get it out. I feel like I have the answers to these questions, but I can't get past the Christian god-complex and so nobody ever genuinely listens to me. They just start with the assumption I am wrong and in need of the cure they possess. They just forget I've seen the cure in action and guys, it sure looks like a placebo to me. bossmanham October 19, 2009 I'm still not sure what you're upset about with me. I was just giving my perspective on what you said. I'm sorry if I came across as condescending. I'm not sure what you want me to understand. Feel free to e-mail me with questions. I'll listen and try to understand. I'm not going to pretend to be the most capable apologist in the world. Brian is probably more capable than I am. You could even e-mail people like William Lane Craig or Greg Kokul. townpiper March 2, 2014 Hey Josh— I think you're closer to God than you realize. We all know manipulation when we see it. There are a lot of Christian jerks out there, just as there are a lot of Atheist jerks…. Tell it like it is….but don't negate the truth of message because the messenger happens to be an idiot, a control freak or a narcissist etc etc. May God Bless you from head to toe noapologiesallowed March 3, 2014 Hey, Josh. Listen to townpiper. There are a lot of jerks out there. I just find it odd that you would use your own interactions with a limited number of Christians to conclude that not "one Christian" understands you (about some unspecified point[s]). In my experience, I find no better people to endure my and other people's moods and words than people who: (1) are interested in the deep questions of life; (2) understand that nature of the human condition (as defined in the Scriptures and understood by our own individual experiences); (3) because of (1) and (2) actively exercise grace, forgiveness, and understanding. Note: My name is Joshua, too. I'm into guitars and I'm a huge Jeremy Brett as Sherlock Holmes fan, too. 😉 jeremy March 8, 2014 Josh (#1) – That story (of the dude getting kicked out) is indeed more than frustrating. I have had similar toxic experiences and it might even enrage me (but those are my issues). I am not an apologist. I am not going to try to make an apologetic. But your frustration rings through and I hear it. You may be disappointed to hear I am a Christian or it may make not matter to you. I am not sure how I am b/c life has been really really really dark and I tend to emotionally reason with the worst of them..I find little comfort in God, but for some odd reason, I do indeed believe…not out of fear not out of clinging…and i have read a lot myself. Someday we will have to catch up. Continue your searching and hopefully you will meet just 1 Christian who might alter your views. (I tend to watch how one acts and not so much the pedantic theology…but then again, I am rather judgmental at times…Wish you the best.) Stevemd March 13, 2014 People had Jesus right in front of them speaking right to them, and they had to decide between Pharisees, Sadducees, Jesus, Greek, Rome…. We have such varied influence today. There is one chapter in scripture where it starts with Jesus feeding thousands, and ends with Jesus asking his disciples if they would leave him too. Figure out what they said and why they said it.