Sunday, October 25, 2009

Sunday Quote: William Booth on Life

“Your days at the most cannot be very long, so use them to the best of your ability for the glory of God and the benefit of your generation.”

– William Booth


12 Comments

  1. Lee October 25, 2009

    "for the glory of God"

    I do not understand why this bit was added?

    It makes no sense to include it.

    So lets remove it…

    "Your days at the most cannot be very long, so use them to the best of your ability and the benefit of your generation."

    Now that is much better… I can drink to that.

    Lee

  2. Leslie October 26, 2009

    Unfortunately without God my generation and everything else for that matter is irrelevant. Let's change it up to fit the atheist's worldview:

    "Your days at the most cannot be very long, and they are meaningless anyway, so do your best to ignore that fact and enjoy them doing whatever makes you happy."

    A very inspiring quote.

  3. Lee October 26, 2009

    Hi Leslie,

    Unfortunately without God my generation and everything else for that matter is irrelevant.

    I feel sorry for you if this is truly what you think.

    I suppose when it is what you are taught from the cradle, it is what you will take to your grave.

    Let's change it up to fit the atheist's worldview:

    I'll get the straw ready…

    "Your days at the most cannot be very long

    True…

    and they are meaningless anyway

    Not to me they are not.

    so do your best to ignore that fact

    No, don't ignore it.

    Knowing something is limited makes it all the more precious.

    It is those that think life is forever that I worry for – for them life really must be meaningless.

    If you truly believe you will live forever after death in heaven – what really does this life mean? Nothing, it is a joke…

    and enjoy them doing whatever makes you happy."

    Not whatever, there are limits.

    A very inspiring quote.

    It was all that straw that got stuck in your throat 🙂

    I do not think we well agree on our different worldviews, so I will just say “Whatever makes you happy and gets you through the day (so long as it doesn’t hurt anyone, including yourself)”

    Take care

    Lee

  4. The High and the Mighty October 26, 2009

    Lee, if there is no God, then any ability you possess is at best a pointless effort and any benefit to your generation is completely meaningless. So drink up, you're going to need it, but just don't discredit the beginning of Booth's statement, as "your days at the most cannot not be very long."

    God is logically necessary. He created you in his infinite wisdom and gave you purpose.

  5. Thomas October 26, 2009

    Whatever makes you happy and gets you through the day (so long as it doesn’t hurt anyone, including yourself)

    Happiness? Hurt? What are those, Lee? Sounds like you are pronouncing an "ought" that we all "ought" to follow. Where do these come from Lee and why should anyone follow it? 🙂

  6. Lee October 28, 2009

    Hi Thomas,

    Happiness? Hurt? What are those, Lee?

    Are you human? Just checking, since you are asking a question I would expect only the likes of Data from Star Trek need to ask (You know, fictional non-human characters).

    Do you really need to ask?

    OK – try this, go get a knife and stab it deep into your right hand…. did that hurt, did that bring pleasure?

    Just kidding, your question to me is a joke so humour is the only way I know how to respond.

    If you have no understanding of what hurts you, or brings you pleasure – then I am amazed you got this far in life.

    Lets just skip to the end – If you are ultimately trying to claim (as most theists do) that “Absolute morals” exist – then prove it, show it – don’t just assert it.

    I do not believe any such absolute morals exist – if this is your claim, then guess where the burden of proof rests.

    However, lets look into what your claim might be (since you have not really come clean with it)

    For starters, tell me how anyone can go from believing in an all-loving God to getting any sense of right and wrong from such a being. (Hint: If by definition everything God does is good – then we have no idea what is wrong)

    If you do not believe in an all-loving God – fine, but I think many Christians will disagree with you if this is your claim and you still wish to be called Christian.

    Now, is it God that is telling you what is right and wrong, or you are only doing as you are told out of the fear of Hell or the claimed reward of Heaven – how can it then be said you have any sense of what morals really are yourself?

    You are just following orders – if this is the case, then by what reasons can they be thought as moral – they are not by any definition I know.

    As the song goes – just “Be good for goodness sake”

  7. Lee October 28, 2009

    Sounds like you are pronouncing an "ought" that we all "ought" to follow.

    Where have I said “ought” – ah yes, it is where I advised that you should not hurt yourself.

    Well, in your special case you are free to hurt yourself as much as you want, I “ought” not tell you what to do right? (I have no the right)

    I would not want my “ought” stop you personally gaining the pleasure that hurt brings you.

    I was merely trying to care and look after you based purely on my own personal experience and the lessons learnt from the society I was raised – but you are clearly a big boy who knows how much pain and hurt he can take.

    Enjoy

    As for hurting others – well, this is why we have laws. (You have heard of them I assume)

    No God required – just agreement in a society on what is right and what is wrong.

    No absolutes, plenty of grey areas – just common agreement. It isn’t perfect, that is why laws (and morals) change over time.

    Don’t believe me – just read the bible, in it there is a very different view of what is ‘moral’ and ‘right’.

    Thank goodness no one thinks that those morals should apply today…

    Where do these come from Lee

    Within?
    Society?
    Evolution?

    A mix of all of the above – yes, that sounds about right.

    Have you a better idea which has fewer unknowns? A dictator? That cannot be right… 🙂

    and why should anyone follow it? 🙂

    You do not have to follow – so go punch a policeman in the face for the fun of it.

    Then see how society looks after you. 🙂

    If you want to ‘get along’ in this big old world, you will find it better if you do not go around punching people (another little hint there)

    If you cannot work out why, then you have some serious moral issues you need to resolve.

    Maybe you really do need ‘Big Brother’ to be watching you if you have no personal moral compass.

    Maybe I should be happy that you feel and believe ‘someone is watching you’ and that this belief involves the ‘fear of Hell’ and the ‘promise of Heaven’

    It isn’t moral by my definition – but at least we can both sleep easier at night.

    Take care – I will be watching…

    Lee

  8. Chad October 28, 2009

    Lee,

    You wrote:

    "You do not have to follow – so go punch a policeman in the face for the fun of it. Then, see how society looks out for you."

    Imagine, for the sake of argument, a world were everyone believes that killing innocent children for fun is "right." There is no legal penalty or societal ramifications.

    According to your view, would it not be correct to say that this behavior would then be acceptable?

    Respectfully

  9. Lee October 28, 2009

    Hi Chad,

    Imagine, for the sake of argument, a world were everyone believes that killing innocent children for fun is "right." There is no legal penalty or societal ramifications.

    Not hard to think about – the bible talks of killing babies, smashing them against rocks and such so I guess it happened not so long ago. 🙂

    According to your view, would it not be correct to say that this behavior would then be acceptable?

    No

    According to that society, yes – but according to my morality, it is horribly wrong.

    Care to address my other points on morality now?

    Lee

  10. Chad October 29, 2009

    Lee,

    "Care to address my other points on morality now?"

    I may or I may not; however, I am under no obligation to do so.

    Now, back to my prior point:

    You'll have to excuse my persistence, but I'm still a little unsure about "your morality."

    You wrote: "No God required – just agreement in a society on what is right and what is wrong."

    So, would it not be accurate to say that you only think killing babies is wrong because society agrees that hurting others is wrong and that killing babies is wrong also?

    Thanks

  11. Thomas October 29, 2009

    Oh Lee…

    For some strange reason I’m having déjà vu. Are you? Maybe we’ve had this discussion somewhere before….back in June….? My original post above was to simply remind you of that discussion 🙂

    In all sincerity and honesty, I’ve clarified and argued my position with you before and I see no reason to rehash those same arguments again. Search back to June, and re-read our discussion.

    If you still think I’m wrong, you can post something on your blog and perhaps we can discuss it there a bit at some point because I do enjoy interacting with you.

  12. Lee October 29, 2009

    Hi Thomas,

    if you still think I’m wrong, you can post something on your blog

    Can you comment on what is it you believe and why with regards morals – then I will.

    Do you think morals can come from 'within' without God – if not, why not.

    Do you think morals have to come from God – if so why?

    Do you think absolute morals exist – if so, how do you go about proving this claim?

    Where do you think God gets His morals from?

    Thanks

    Lee